4:8 Bootstrapping event tech for success

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Lee:
Welcome to the Event Engine Podcast. This is your host, Lee, on today's show, yet again, live and in-person this time, we have the one and only, Mads Kjer. How are you, sir?

Mads Kjer:
Amazing. Thank you. Nice to see you in real time. You're not a robot.

Lee:
I can touch you. This is incredible. Oh, yeah, you're real.

Mads Kjer:
That's fantastic. I think you're not a robot.

Lee:
No, I'm not a robot, despite the fact that we do offer AI.

Mads Kjer:
Okay

Lee:
I was joking to somebody that I was actually the prototype AI bot that we'd created and made to look lifelike. And you know what? Nobody laughed. It's just a classic dad joke, I'm afraid. Love it. Folks, if you're not aware of who Mads is, he is the co-founder, I think, of Mads... No, your name is Mads Kjer. He's the co-founder of Ticket Butler. He was on the show just a few weeks ago. We had a fantastic time and it was all online. This time we get to have a conversation all about Ticket Butler and how you got started essentially bootstrapping an event tech business. So before we jump into that, could you just give people a very quick 30-second bio of Mads, and then we will jump into your journey?

Mads Kjer:
Sure thing. My name is Mads. I'm from Denmark, Copenhagen. I live in Copenhagen from Aarhus, the Jutland side of Denmark. Yeah, as you said, I'm a CEO and co-founder of Ticket Butler. I founded six years ago. I'm a former gymnastics. And if you've listened to the previous podcast, you figured that out, I can jump on my butt and I can still do some tricks. But you can't see that today in this episode, unfortunately.

Lee:
Because I think you said you had stiff legs anyway.

Mads Kjer:
I do from trainings yesterday. Exactly.

Lee:
You can also google and you'll be able to find the Denmark's Got Talent as to what we're talking about. You said it. I did indeed. And it's also in the previous episode, so we're all good. So, Mads, today we want to look really at bootstrapping an Event Tech company, and that's something that you guys have done. So could we jump in the imaginary time machine back six, seven years ago? Could you share your initial journey into building a ticket builder?

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, it started with me working for a company in Denmark doing gymnastics shows. I was sitting there selling tickets, do the marketing and everything and sitting with ticketing systems. My brother lived in Australia. He was the lead developer for a ticketing system in Australia. Went out for a beer. I visited him in Australia, went out for a beer. We just sit there complaining, complaining about ticketing systems and how they did things and how I was complaining about how I was doing things in my work. Then we got drunk and then at some point we was like, Whatever, we do it ourselves. Let's build a company. Come on, bro, let's build a company. The day after Hangover, we were like, Oh, well, let's do it. Back then, he was living in Australia. I was in Denmark, so it took some time before we really began building it. But that was really how it started over beer.

Lee:
You complained about an experience you were having in the real world and you were like, We can solve this problem. How did you go about starting to solve the problem? I guess what's the problem in a sentence that you decided you wanted to solve? Then how did you start going about solving it?

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, so we saw the ticketing systems back then being super advanced and super expensive. Actually, what we wanted to build was a free ticketing system for everybody funded by ads. Sounds good.

Lee:
Yeah.

Mads Kjer:
But you need a shitload of volume to actually earn money on ads, like a lot of tickets. Long story short, we changed that price model and resulted in doing the same price model as almost everybody else. But that was the learnings. Back then, we were just naive. I didn't have any entrepreneurial experience or anything back then. My brother had a bit, but that was just for fun. We needed to learn every step of the way by just doing things. That's also part of the bootstrap journey. We didn't have the experience with finding funding and everything. I'm not saying that's the reason why we did bootstrap, but we just need time for learning. But that was actually before six years ago.

Lee:
Okay. How did you start to develop the product and I guess invest in it? Did you work a job on the side for a while? Or how did you connect?

Mads Kjer:
In the beginning, we were moon shining. Do you know that?

Lee:
I've heard of moonlighting. Moonshining. What's moonshining then?

Mads Kjer:
Moonshining is when you work on it at the shine of the moon. You work on your business in the night. Oh, right. Yeah, okay. I was studying at engineering at DTU in Denmark, Denmark's technical university. My brother was working at a corporate and we were working on it at the night. That's moonshining. That's a part of being bootstrap. You don't have money to pay yourself. We were actually moonshining until I could pay a salary to myself. At that point, my two co-founders founded a IT consultancy, which goes very well hand in hand with having a tech company as well. That's been a part of the journey, is having this IT consultancy funding some of the salaries, but having that capacity together with a tech company goes very well hand in hand in terms of resources that you can take resources from the IT consultancy into the tech when it's needed. But you also can have a few customers on the side working on IT consultancy. We were very much more flexible in terms of IT resources, which is really, really expensive when you're building a tech product.

Lee:
Absolutely.

Mads Kjer:
That's part of how we were bootstrap. That's the first biggest thing. The second thing is being bootstrap, it forces you to deliver really well and it forces you to make your customers come back, not to make your customers come back, but to make them like coming back because you can't churn customers. If you keep churning customers just like a big black hole you put money and resources into. The way we've always been super duper focused on giving an awesome experience from our customers. Because that's what we're grown from. We don't grow from Investors, we grow from our own customers. By giving them an exceptional experience both with support and product and everything, we make sure they come back. From that profit, we make sure we can help other organisers. That's how the snowball has been rolling, as well as the customers have been recommending other customers. It's just this positive effect. But being bootstrap, you're really forced to think about those effects because you can't just pull out money out the window.

Lee:
No, you can't mess it up, etc. You want them to have a good impression. You want them to, like you said, spread the news far and wide to all of their associates, and you can grow through that. How did you, as a bootstrap company, you've been moonshining. Yes, you've got the IT consultancy on the side to help bring in some cash flow, etc, But how did you go about finding those first few customers? Because there is the credibility element, isn't there? You're a young, small, bootstrap company. You don't have a big, flash, big head office and a big, flashy website, how do you get a company to say, All right, I'll take a pun on you?

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, that's a good question. In the beginning, there's much, I won't say hustle, but I think we've expanded our features and product portfolio slowly. In the beginning, we weren't taking on tasks that we couldn't deliver on. If you have an abundance of money and you could just deliver or develop whatever you need, we couldn't do that. We were very precise on only taking in customers and tasks that we knew we could deliver on, again, coming back to the customers coming back to us again. But it was difficult. It was hard. It's been hard work, man. It's really hard work, especially in the beginning with... And also starting a ticketing business. There are so many ticketing customers, like ticketing providers doing such a good job. It's really good ticketing providers out there. But back then, we had no experience. We're just naive, just doing it.

Lee:
I think there's something, though, admirable about saying, You know what? We can see what other people are doing. There are some frustrations that we would like to solve with that, and then stepping into an already crowded market and going for it. That's very admirable and braves. Some might say stupid, but hey, six years later, you're still going. That's a great thing, too. But also you guys have done something very different, I think, as well. Maybe born out of you being bootstrap, but I believe you guys have differentiated yourself significantly through branding. You've got a great brand, but also through the products that you're delivering, especially with that niche into sustainability. Was that a purposeful?

Mads Kjer:
I'm a product engineer and a part of my education is like, go ask questions and stay quiet. Ask about the frustrations, the pains and everything. After the customer number 20, 30 said, Mads, help us with printing name badges. We hate it for small events. This is not the thousands of people events, just the smaller events. I couldn't help myself. Let's build that printer. We've never done hardware before. Let's build that printer. But let's come back to help the customers, help them solve some pains, and especially that name badge printer. We had the experience and we've hit a niche market with the name badge printer that helped us growing. One and a half years ago, we printed our first name badge outside of Denmark. Today we've been in 29 countries with the name badge printer, five upcoming in five different continents in one and a half years. We've also seen, but this is the same methods we've been using since the beginning, is like listening to what are the pains and just delivering that awesome experience for the customers and the organisers because that's what helps us grow. Especially now with the name badge printer where we have an even better product market fit, we have better niche that we see not others are doing.

Mads Kjer:
There's a lot of good on-site name badge printer providers out there, but we're just doing it differently. In a way, I don't see anybody doing it.

Lee:
For listeners, could you describe what you're doing as well as the folks who are aware of what ticket butler does?

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, we both do the ticketing part of things and we're aiming of doing things simple. We can do advanced conference and stuff like that in the ticketing, but we are focusing on having a more intuitive UI, like a intuitive interface meaning whenever we have a new feature, we don't put it in the dashboard because otherwise you couldn't find a button because of all the buttons. That's for the ticketing side of things, doing it simple, integrating it on the homepage, your branding, your data, and everything. But talking about this niche with the name badge printing, we've built this small portable printer where it's a label printer, but it's extended with a computer, where we've built in software and hardware, making it seriously plug and play.

Lee:
It also looks really cute as well. Sorry? It looks cute as well. It's a nice design.

Mads Kjer:
You could bring it on the plate. It's super portable. The plug-and-play thing is you turn it on, two buttons, you scan a cure code on the back, that's the setup. It literally takes one minute to set up. We've made this technology that's normally need a technician into something everybody can use, meaning it can be used for events with 50 attendees. We have had customers having 30 events over four months all around Europe with different operations team each time managing that without us handling everything. We had one point of contact, and that point of contact just handled everything else, but the contact wasn't physical in place because it's so easy to operate this printer. Seriously, turn it on, scan the cure code, begin printing. You scan the cure codes when the attendees arrives and then it just prints the name badge.

Lee:
With the bootstrapping methodology, how did you also... No, as in on this, how did you actually build the hardware? Because that sounds like a lot of research and development. I'm assuming as you've bootstrapped and slowly grown, you've not got thousands of pounds to at this. How did you get from a low-budget development of this product?

Mads Kjer:
Good question. We are using some modern technologies, for example, 3D printing. We got 3D printers in the office printing the casing, which makes the production super agile. In the casing, we have different devices. We can adapt the casing depending on the devices we use. We can swap out devices, everything. 3d printing is one thing, but also these agile development methods, not investing in these moulds in China and you need to build 1,000 devices before it makes sense economically, financially. We're just using these modern ways to develop things, as well as we do have a lot of experience with the software and we hired people for the hardware as well as the product development, as well as my experience within product engineering. All that combined made us move super fast, super efficiently, having time to market really, really short because we had some good agile techniques internally as well with this 3D printing technology.

Lee:
It sounds like you've used 3D printing to get rid of that whole case production saga, but also you've used reusable off-the-shelf parts that you've put together, plus your own software and some hardware all melded into one product. You did that on purpose. Was the MP... Was that just to get an MPV out there? Sorry, MPV? MVP. I'm saying the wrong way. Was that to get an MVP out there as quickly as you can to test the market? Or has the product changed much since then?

Mads Kjer:
Yes and no. The cute little design hasn't changed. Actually, the parts inside has changed a lot. The first MVP was, of course, different from the one we have now on the inside, but the outside has been the same because we actually pretty much nailed the design from the first version. Not the MVP. The MVP had a cardboard box next to it with some things in it.

Lee:
Well, like the Apple One.

Mads Kjer:
I'll say the MSP.

Lee:
Okay.

Mads Kjer:
The minimum sellable product.

Lee:
Oh, okay.

Mads Kjer:
Not viable product, sellable product. Yeah, so we did it to time to market, but we still do it today because it just works. Looks good, it's flexible. We can produce printers from day to day almost. Part of the story is also like we have one model where you can rent it for one event and you can also scale it up. You can have 15 printers for one event if you have 8,000 attendees, or you can just have one if you had an event with 50 attendees, and you can also have them in-house. You as a company, if you run a lot of events over the year, you can just have them in-house and just pull them out on the shelf and use it for that event with 30 attendees and then use it next week again. But back to the production is we do have these very short production cycles, so we can deliver very quickly because everything is in-house and we don't need to ship things around in China. Sustainability-wise as well, also a thing. We don't produce anything that's not needed. Yeah.

Lee:
You build the cases on site at the office. In theory, you could send the files to someone else as well, couldn't you? For them to put something together or the instructions or whatever in another country as well based on what you've done. That's phenomenal because you've not got too much in there that's absolutely custom to you that Apple has to get its own chips made and then placed on boards, etc. That's a fascinating journey. I think I'm hearing here as well that in order to bootstrap tech innovations, be agile, build the MVP first, obviously, but also the minimum sellable product, i. E, solve the problem and no more, and put it out to market. Don't get too many people involved in it. Don't drag the development out for months and months, which we've done as a software company. We've sometimes taken two years to develop a product, which if you add up all of the salaries and the time invested, it's an awful lot of money. When really we could have shipped something a lot sooner. We've learned a lot nowadays. We don't do that. But originally our very first product took us two years to develop, and that costs an awful lot of money.

Lee:
So we were certainly not bootstrapping. But I think that's some big lessons I can learn here. Is there a point, as you've grown, that bootstrapping or the philosophy of bootstrapping no longer is needed because there is now good cash flow? Or is it a philosophy that you want to continue to adopt as you grow? Yeah.

Mads Kjer:
We might find funding at some point when it makes sense for us. We still feel affected by being bootstrap. I'm sure everything have been running even faster if we had funding. But right now we've just built such a great culture and we've been taking it in our pace until now. We've been very controllable, especially during the COVID. Oh, yeah. Having investors in that time have been a shit show. Sorry, my French.

Lee:
It's very good French. It's actually "Merde" in French.

Mads Kjer:
But we could have been taking decisions down the road that has helped us, but has also been dragged a bit out the time of development and the amount of customers we have had had and stuff like that. But at some point, we might find investors, but that will be for growing even faster.

Lee:
But I think I mean not just investors because as you've grown anyway, your income is naturally increasing and your profitability going up as well. I guess what I mean is when you look at the bank balance, you're thinking, Oh, this is looking a lot healthier than when we first started. We feel, psychologically, a bit richer as a business. Perhaps we can make decisions that we never used to make. Let's just invest in X, Y, Z because it's going to look good or look better, etc. I guess I'm saying, does the bootstrapping mentality eventually start to leave you, or is it something you think is going to be around for a long time because it keeps you so agile?

Mads Kjer:
Good question. Well, it certainly doesn't feel as limiting anymore because, of course, we have a higher revenue and we've got a lot of employees and everything. It gives more freedom to test new things, to invest in new marketing, sales channels, product things. But the things I'm most proud of lately is we have enough resources now to invest in sustainable solutions, which hopefully can get a return down the road. But I've chosen to invest in some sustainable solutions and development now because it's dear to my heart. For example, we've been offsetting our own carbon footprint with 105%. We've been developing a feature in the ticketing system where the ticket buyer can offset their footprint at the event as an opt-in. We don't earn anything on it. We do it because we want to help the climate. We've been building some... How we transport the name badges, we've developed a foam box for the rental printers that can be sent back and forth with a low carbon footprint. I've done a bunch of different things, which is way more sustainable because we have some more money to be able to actually do it. We have freedom to do stuff like that now, which I wanted to do two, three years ago, but I didn't feel we had the resources.

Mads Kjer:
But we do have that now.

Lee:
Now, you mentioned earlier the C-word COVID, which brings back many bad memories, I think, for many people. How did that affect you guys? Because you're a bootstrap company with a brand new product that you're bringing to the market, i.e, the ticket butler the software, etc, the ticketing side, you're also looking at creating this ticketing machine. How did COVID affect all of that? Because the events industry practically switched off overnight.

Mads Kjer:
We launched the name badge. We sent the first invoice for the name badge printer in December 19. The day before COVID, the first rules of distancing and everything, like closing events down in Denmark, the day before those got enforced in Denmark, we launched the plantable name badge, referring to our earlier podcast about sustainable name badges. We have this name badge you can plant. We launched that the day before the rules got enforced in Denmark. I was like, Bye-bye. But we chose to say we know physical events will come back. Some said the event industry will never be the same again.

Lee:
Well, here we are, thankfully.

Mads Kjer:
I was like, Yes, it will. It will be changing a bit, but people will never stop meeting each other. We need to sit in front of each other, give each other a hug, even though we haven't seen each other before in.

Lee:
Real life. Well, now we're BFFs.

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, exactly. We knew that, so we didn't begin building any virtual software or anything. We were like, Nope, we want to be the experts within the few things we do. Then we just begin hustling. One thing was we had the IT consultancy on the side. That helped a lot. Then we just build a marketplace for online events, but with a physical aspect of it. We help organisers execute online events where we help them sending out whatever physical packages for the attendees. We did rum tasting, bakery courses, all sorts of things, whiskey tasting, chocolate tasting with a guy from Costa Rica, he was doing the tasting for Danish participants, all sorts of things, just hustling the way out of there. But being bootstrap, that was difficult. Super difficult.

Lee:
But does bootstrap, though, during that time also give you the benefit of being able to do that? Because there are some big companies that would not be able to hustle like that. They wouldn't be able to make any of those decisions because of the managerial hierarchy, etc, Whereas you guys could do it all, put your heads together and say, Right, so what are we going to do during this? Let's do this. We've got the skills in-house.

Lee:
Quick three weeks later, your MVP is another week later, your MSP. Now, new phrase I've learned, I'm going to be using MSP all day now, mate.

Mads Kjer:
I'll tell you, not even three weeks. We were sitting, us three partners at a- No.

Lee:
One likes to show off, mate.

Mads Kjer:
I don't know, like a month in or something like that. We were sitting, us three partners just being very stressed out about the situation. What do we do? Do we lay up here or whatever? We went to an online beer tasting the week before.

Lee:
Yeah, beer features a lot here.

Mads Kjer:
Sorry, yeah.

Lee:
Carry on. Sorry.

Mads Kjer:
But we went to this online beer tasting, and that was first of the kind in COVID, and we were like, That was such an amazing experience. Seriously, we found a napkin, wrote down a business model for this platform with making online events for event organisers eight days after we launched.

Lee:
I'll give you a fist bump for that. It's amazing.

Mads Kjer:
That was just the team getting together. We had the registration platform, we had the network within the organisers, we had the tech experience. We haven't done any logistics before, but we learned that. You're working out. Nobody knew about it, but we learned very quickly together with our organisers and partners and stuff like that, but eight days we launched that product. We couldn't have done that if we had to invest. Then we have board meetings and voting and everything. We've been very resilient, both about this, again, this mindset like we need to provide values, otherwise we can't earn money and grow, as well as having the IT consultancy has also been giving us some resilience.

Lee:
I think the IT consultancy as well is good because you guys, you've not got your eggs in the ticketing basket, as it were. You have other sources of revenue that you can lean on during the rougher times. Similar to us back in the day, we had different products or different services that we could offer. I was also an IT specialist, so I was able to offer corporate-level IT consultancy to keep my lights on whilst also moonshining—another word I've learned—with the business to try and build it as we were trying to attract clients to our new software, etc. Definitely something that's helpful. Have you continued with the IT consultancy on the side as well?

Mads Kjer:
We still have it. It's very, very few customers over there, but they're good customers. I have a few colleagues over there working with these customers. They're happy, everybody's happy. Right now it's like, why not keep going? Because it's good. It's extra resources. Everybody's happy. For those colleagues working on those projects, it's good. There's some problems and challenges that they wouldn't face otherwise in terms of tech challenges. It's good challenges. Right now, why not?

Lee:
I guess as well, you've got your own IT consultancy on tap whenever you need. That sounds phenomenal.

Mads Kjer:
They.

Lee:
Can look after you.

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, it started, and that's the case. It's a recommendation for other bootstrap companies or just people who want to test out the startup world or whatever doing some consultancy in the beginning, that's good earning good money in the beginning while you're building a product. Building a product is shit money. Now we know that's a French word as well. Shit money in the beginning, consultancy is good money in the beginning, but at some point it will tip over. We tipped over that long ago, but still having that safety net without taking too much focus if you're bootstrap, that can be a strategy, but it totally takes focus in the beginning. It does. You cannot avoid it. If we didn't do the consultancy and had funding instead, I'm sure we will be way bigger today. But for me, it's also about the culture, building a good business, building a culture where everybody's happy about what they're doing, making sure customers are happy, not just looking at them as numbers, but looking at them as humans and customers, making sure their events are a success. That's super important for me, having that integrity. I'm not saying you don't have integrity if you have funding.

Mads Kjer:
But just when we can follow the scaling we've done, but still having those core elements and values in place, I enjoy that. That's really good. It's also a personal enjoyment. But at some point, we might get some funding to grow.

Lee:
I feel like you may not. I feel like you'll naturally grow. I think you found a vibe and a way of building a business that you clearly enjoy, you clearly thrive off, and you are clearly very versatile as a result. I am fairly sure that you may even get to the dotted line and then just not sign. I get the impression that you'll probably. Just as we come into Land then, if there's any young Event Tech startup, they've been moonshining, maybe they have their MSP, maybe they've managed to attract a few clients, but they just feel overwhelmed at generally marketing their business and getting their name out there. Would you have any advice for them on how they might be able to reach a wider audience with their product?

Mads Kjer:
Yeah, definitely networking in the beginning. Just go with networking. Yeah, how to do that. Find relevant people that can match you up with relevant people. There's a lot of good startup events out there, but try to go as focused as possible in your own industry. It's good talking with experienced people from whatever business, but trying to be as focused on your niche as possible. For example, if you're doing an EventTech startup, you should go to Event Tech Live.

Lee:
Here we go. Yeah.

Mads Kjer:
To get in touch with people that can help you finding your next customer. I would definitely recommend that because you cannot win with Facebook ads and stuff like that at the beginning without knowing who you're targeting. So getting the knowledge for knowing who you're targeting to actually get the correct and the right network you need, being more clear about what you're looking for. You might not know in the beginning, but that's what you need to explore. But you can explore it through and listening to people who work in the same industry. Yeah. I'm networking with the correct people in the beginning, as niche as possible. I think that will be a good recommendation in the beginning.

Lee:
No, I totally agree. It's how we've grown. One of the things that we weren't expecting was actually that developing relationships with other suppliers in the industry has actually been way more effective than trying to find networking groups where our target client is, if that makes sense. Because we are now forming partnerships in an event such as Event Tech Live, where people know what we do, we know what they do. And as we find new customers, we're essentially able to pass opportunities and leads around. And there's an awful lot of goodwill in this industry and people are able to pass things on. For example, we don't necessarily do apps. We do web builds, but we don't do apps. And we've just today had a great chat with Canopy next to us who do event apps. Great, we've continued to develop that relationship. We might be able to either partner with them at some point or pass business on, etc, Just a very small example of the things you can do when you're super niche. Mate, this has been a wonderful conversation. Really nice to do in person. Before we go, for the folks who didn't get to see the last episode of which they can watch, could you just show us, for the benefit of the camera in person, because last time there was a bit of recording issues, your tickets.

Lee:
Would they plantable tickets?

Mads Kjer:
Oh, yeah, sure. Like on the camera here? Yeah. Folks, if.

Lee:
You're listening to the podcast, come on to YouTube and you can see these plantable tickets.

Mads Kjer:
On the front side, for those who can't see it, this is actually my business card today, but it's the same thing that goes for the name badge on the front here. It's my name, it's my phone number and everything, but that will be the front side of a name badge. This is printed with a label from our mobile small printer that prints the label here. You put it on here. On the back side, you will see a description and some small icons on how to plant your name badge. In this name badge, those are camomile seeds, so you can plant your name badge. Instead of using plastic name badge or whatever, you can give your attendees a memory to bring home. If you've been on conferences away from your family, stuff like that, it's awesome to go home and plant a caramel flour or a tomato or whatever and see it grow. You have fun with it with your family at home. See, here's the one with tomato seeds. That's absolute our best seller and I love it. I'm proud of that product because it's helping event organisers being creative. We help them being creative on their behalf and they get all the shine.

Lee:
It's another way for you in a very crowded market to stand out. It's something that not many tickets... I'm not actually aware of any others right now that are doing something like that, so it's great. I'm totally going to steal a couple if you don't mind.

Mads Kjer:
Go on, man.

Lee:
Take them home for my son and we can plant one.

Mads Kjer:
That would be lovely. Go on. I should have brought the floppy discs.

Lee:
Well, we've got the pictures. I'll make sure we put a picture on. Now, picture. Picture.

Mads Kjer:
I only got 19,500 left, so you better be fast.

Lee:
I've got loads of floppy discs at home as well. They're all from my Amiga. I still have an Amiga.

Mads Kjer:
But I don't want to know what's on them.

Lee:
Well, I've got lots and lots of games. Okay, that's all right. I'm in business software as well. I'm into business software. I'm a big nerd. It's a whole other podcast I want to start all about the business software that people used to use 20, 30 years ago and then comparing it to what we do today. That would be fun. I know it'd be great. I mean, it wouldn't make any money whatsoever, but it would be totally nerd tactic for me to do. Maybe one day I might have another podcast about that. You never know. Mate, thank you so much for hanging out with me. It's been so good to do it in person. Pleasure. Loved our digital one, but this is 10 times better because I can see you in the flesh. Let's do it again. Thank you so much. Give us a fist bump. Thanks, man. Nice one. Take care. I'll see you soon.

Mads Kjer:
Cheers.